Parts list for a bullet resistant Daytona Anima build

50race · Mar 30, 2019

storminnorman07 said:
I don't know if it was just fermented grape juice thirty when mbf made the set a customer sent me to install in a head or not. But I strongly urge to inspect them before installing. How is everyone uploading pics on here now that photobucket is not free?

I am using https://postimages.org/

I can't quite translate your post back to sober language. I am guessing you are saying you got some subpar valves from MBF.

I'm not recommending any of MBFs products just making lists of off the self parts. I haven't made any selections yet.

storminnorman07 · Mar 31, 2019

Guess the joke got lost in translation. I'll make this more cut and dry. Yes in my opinion a customer of mine received some sub par valves from MBF. I make my own valves so this is my first experience with the mbf valves. That being said I cant say if this was just a bad set or if they all come this way.

All 4 valves are very dimensional inconsistent. Stem diameters vary between all 4 valves. Frictionless coating is only on half the stem/valve. Valve seating face run out ranged from 0.0015" to 0.003"

I wont clutter the page with all the different stem diameter pics inhale but heres an example of one of the intake stems.

50race said:
I am using https://postimages.org/

I can't quite translate your post back to sober language. I am guessing you are saying you got some subpar valves from MBF.

I'm not recommending any of MBFs products just making lists of off the self parts. I haven't made any selections yet.

storminnorman07 · Mar 31, 2019

Sorry lol wasnt sure if the picture would attach or not. Here is both intakes

They are a 2 piece valve. Can say with any degree of certainty if the tip side is high carbon steel or a martensitic stainless. If I were a guessing man I would say it's high carbon steel. But at any rate the very distinguishable line about half way up the valve stem is where it goes from non magnetic to magnetic. It I'd also where you have dimension discrepancies.

ledge from tulip to seating face as well as grinding is chattered

T-Wrecks Racing · Mar 31, 2019

Great, I just bought a set of those valves...

I added images by using the upload images. I resize them down so maybe that's the issue?

EDIT - I just measured mine and while my caliper is not as accurate as yours the stems all come in a little over 0.174". Mine are also black on the retainer end. The seating faces look good too. Maybe these are a bad batch? Mine just came directly from MBF in Italy a few weeks ago.

storminnorman07 · Mar 31, 2019

I very well could of just got a bad set. As I stated earlier this is the first set I have personally had in my hands to look over and inspect.

0.174" with guess o meter or actual outside micrometer? If you're getting 0.174" with outside micrometer you are going to have grotest stem to guide clearance. I built a number of these animals when they first came out so the stuff I have record are from the 1st gen heads. I have actively avoided doing them in recent years due to as someone has already stated. Imo they are disposable engines imo a lot of the internals come pre worn out right out of the factory. Not actually worn out but over clearanced as if they were worn out. Which is sad the anima head has a TON of potential for power you just have to unfook just about everything the yellowndevils did wrong which again as someone stated you are then very deeply invested in the head. But reasoning for mentioning stem tongued clearance and when I pulled my specs. The head I'm currently doing for a guy he didnt send factory valves with so I cant double check stem size to see if it has changed. The first batch came with 0.176" stems stem to guide clearance was in the ball park of 1.8~2 thou which is really sloppy imo. Here are the guide bores of the new head I have.... lmao it's a fooking joke.

Master ring inset bore gauge too

Bote gauge zeroed for 0.17713"

Intake guide bores

Exhaust guide bore

this guide actually has more clearance than that I only preloaded gauge for about 2 thou over the 0.17713"

In case any one is confused the dial reads in 0.0001" each number line is 1 thou/0.001" each small line is 1 tenth or 0.0001". If pointer is on 1 side of dial its tighter then 0.17713" and vice versa if it's on 9 side of dial it's that many tenths larger than 0.17713".

So on this head intake guide bores are right around the ball park of 0.1776~0.1775" if your stems are 0.174 you are in the 3 thou plus range for clearance

T-Wrecks Racing · Apr 2, 2019

That was with my cheap dial caliper so I don't trust the numbers, but they are consistent. My equally cheap micrometer is not much better

You may see these soon so you can be the judge...

50race · Apr 2, 2019

I have not stated this yet but the build of a solid Anima, which is likely pretty clear after you read Storminnorman07's posts, requires completely going through the head with new seats, guides, valves, springs, and retainers. Which will be more costly in parts alone than going through 250F head as the parts will be custom order and not off the shelf.

Possible cost saving idea is to use a ZS190 2 valve head and big valve that with all the same treatment(seats/guides/etc) but with half the parts to buy. Will lose some power potential but also save money. I have not used the ZS190 head but worked over the power would probably be more than a stock Anima 4v head...bench racing extraordinaire.

Will be adding a couple more parts lists when I get a chance
Bucci offers a few things
Aasa from Greece does a lot of head work but I don't know if they would sell head rebuild/mod kits (seats/guides/valves/etc) for user install.

The down side to researching more and more is that I am now feeling increasingly afraid of running my engines hard. I already knew of issues and poor quality in the Anima but, constantly looking at it is a mild anxiety starter.

storminnorman07 · Apr 2, 2019

T-Wrecks Racing said:
That was with my cheap dial caliper so I don't trust the numbers, but they are consistent. My equally cheap micrometer is not much better

You may see these soon so you can be the judge...

Haha ok so you were using some guess o meters. My best guess from the mbf valves I have here I'd say they probably should spec out 0.1758"~0.176" range and from the animas I have pulled apart new included I'd say guide bores from factory are around 0.1776". But like you if you end up sending it to me for some love this is all things i check to make sure I'm not sending a guy back a time bomb lol

storminnorman07 · Apr 2, 2019

Lol you are really going to hate seeing my name in this post. The 2v zs is not much better than the anima. Yes it is definitely cheaper initially as well as cheaper to rebuild due to having half the valve train. If memory serves it comes with a 30/26 valve setup which in my opinion the exhaust valve is way to big. Increasing the intake valve to 32mm would help out a bunch. But.... port wall thickness is paper thin in spots. I could not bring myself to attempt to install a larger intake valve in a customers head. If it were my personal head I would of tried it cause I dont care if I have to weld a head up and make it look Frankenstein like. But generally speaking most customers frown on that and being as such I wouldn't do it. The next big issue is spring jacket to port thickness is really thin. They have that HUGE guide bosses which is usually indicator there is not material before you blow a hole into that valve spring seat. Sure as shit one I started getting the roof raised where it was starting to look decent it perforated a hole in the valve spring jacket. Exhaust port is stupidly large as well. Especially in relation to the intake port.

Looking past those drawn backs guide to stem clearance was pretty decent. Valves themself I dont wanna say they are good but dont wanna say they are awful either lol. Surprisingly they make pretty decent power for what they are. The next bit you will have to take with a grain of salt. I have not personally dynoed one but one of the guys I did some porting for was sending me dynos of his. That being said I'm a firm believer in not posting other guys dynos unless they have gave me permission to. But for what it's worth this base lined mid to high 15s. After some porting and I think imbetter exhaust he must 17.4ish and picked up I wanna say 1400 rpms with porting as well as 6 or 8 mph. 190 anima graphs I consider legit lulls are usually in the 18hp range.

If you pull the trigger on the zs 190 and drop a larger valve in it. I know I'd be interested to hear if you were able it get at least 90% head diameter in the port without tearing through.

50race said:
I have not stated this yet but the build of a solid Anima, which is likely pretty clear after you read Storminnorman07's posts, requires completely going through the head with new seats, guides, valves, springs, and retainers. Which will be more costly in parts alone than going through 250F head as the parts will be custom order and not off the shelf.

Possible cost saving idea is to use a ZS190 2 valve head and big valve that with all the same treatment(seats/guides/etc) but with half the parts to buy. Will lose some power potential but also save money. I have not used the ZS190 head but worked over the power would probably be more than a stock Anima 4v head...bench racing extraordinaire.

Will be adding a couple more parts lists when I get a chance
Bucci offers a few things
Aasa from Greece does a lot of head work but I don't know if they would sell head rebuild/mod kits (seats/guides/valves/etc) for user install.

The down side to researching more and more is that I am now feeling increasingly afraid of running my engines hard. I already knew of issues and poor quality in the Anima but, constantly looking at it is a mild anxiety starter.

50race · Apr 3, 2019

T-Wrecks Racing · Apr 4, 2019

These guys have very nice looking 190-4V valves in stainless. They have to be better because they cost more!

MOTOSYKO - the mini-bike specialists. Daytona (4v) race valves - MS396/MS397

50race · Apr 5, 2019

T-Wrecks Racing said:
These guys have very nice looking 190-4V valves in stainless. They have to be better because they cost more!

MOTOSYKO - the mini-bike specialists. Daytona (4v) race valves - MS396/MS397

I saw those today. also out of stock

mrrcx · Apr 5, 2019

storminnorman07 said:
Lol you are really going to hate seeing my name in this post.

You make me want to participate in these threads <3
So tell me why at your level, you don't have your own heads made with ports seats and guides?
Also you make valves or have them made? Na filled?

storminnorman07 · Apr 5, 2019

mrrcx said:
You make me want to participate in these threads <3
So tell me why at your level, you don't have your own heads made with ports seats and guides?
Also you make valves or have them made? Na filled?

Is that a serious or sarcastic patronizing question? The serious answer is cost and time vs returns. You know as well as I do the time involved designing and engineering for a quality part. Which I could look past. it's the manufacturing stand point that is the no go for me. If I send it over seas 1.) In less I wanted to spend most of my days there over someone's shoulder making sure my specs are met they wont be met and it would be a pile o chit to. Which imo where the anima stands. The head is a well performing head. Its fall is manufacturing. 2.) Keeping it state side no one would purchase due to cost of head. I'm not going to preach how Daytona had a team of engineers with way WAY cooler tooling and facilities than I do at their disposal. cause you are a M.E. and know this. What I will say is it dont make any sense for me to persue that other than to stroke the chit out of my ego.

I had once thought about just taking a few anima head castings and having them pre setup. That way a guy/gal could say hey I want one they then have the option to send their existing head as a core for xx fee or no core xxx fee. It didn't take long to find everyone wants one not many can justify spending twice the amount for the head than they did for the entire engine. I'm tired of trying to explain why it cost that much to guys. I'm currently working on a anima head and after this one a guy or gal is going to be pretty hard pressed to get me to do anything more than a port job on a anima head. Again just tired of having to defend myself like I'm trying to rob guys of their money. This head came to me just for a port job and and a fresh seat cut for valves. I tell everyone I stand behind my work 110%. Why I can do this is cause I dont tunnel vision and go ok just cut seats make metal chips and send back. I look over the head as a whole to ensure nothing is out of spec that could potentially come back to haunt me. Cause in the eyes of most guys I'm the last guy that put his dick beaters on it if it comes apart it has to be cause of something I did. Not that the guide has 6 thou stem to guide clearance and valve seats are chipped out. So long story shorter this recent head I got the customer has been great about it but that's not generally the norm. I got the head looked it over and find a number of issues. I took pics sent them to the customer and ask what he wants to do. To which I get but how this head doesn't even have 2 hours of run time on it. Then its explain explain explain. Again this particular customer I have built a bunch if engines for so it wasnt the normal explain cause they guy thinks I'm pulling chit from my ass to get them for a couple extra bucks he truly wanted to lean which that type of discussion is fun.

As fast as valves when the anima first came out it didnt take long for me to go the valve train is shit on these heads. I did a run of a dozen ish valves, guides, retainers, springs and cotters fully thinking it would be a hot seller. Took me a few years to sell them off. So now I do them as requested.

mrrcx · Apr 5, 2019

storminnorman07 said:
Is that a serious or sarcastic patronizing question?.

Serious. You are one of the few people that I value engine input from, and I would hope that goes both ways.
The heads are air cooled and simple, why not make some out of a block of aluminum so you don't have to mess with people sending china quality to put some Japanese GD&T into was my point specifically for the 2 valve 190 where the material is too thin for a proper in/ex valve ratio. You don't have to tell me how every wants fine wine on a grape juice budget. It is tough to find people that understand what it takes to do an engine right just because it 'ran before'.
You're a good dude who does good work, don't let the people distract you from your passion.

storminnorman07 · Apr 6, 2019

Haha had to make sure. You would be amazed by some of the things guys ask me. The moment I assume 1 way or the other it's always the opposite. I appreciate the kind words. And yes it goes both ways. Any one that does the work like you have with your xr suspension components has my respect. I imagine you have a fair amount of time wrapped into it testing and checking all angles to make sure its top notch. Its the guys that half arse stuff then comes on here or other mini pages and says do this dat and the other ding.... it's way cheaper than company x and yx it's better, and its identical to their said part. But yet you physically can see in the pic it's not even identical dimensionally speaking let alone other aspects. Which granted depending on the scenario may not be critical and could be over looked even though labeled as "identical" it's when you question it they cock off and have a chip on their shoulders about it like you are talking none sense.

Oh I have definitely considered it a number of times. I'm all manual machines. I could do it but I dont have to explain to you how many hours I would have in set ups and fixturing. It seems like every couple of years I get a bug up my arse and look into a 5 axis cnc. Lol ironically that bug just came about this passing Thursday I went to a pmts in Cleveland. Best quote i got was about 1/4 mill and that's just the unit no tooling ??. Never fails I get home run numbers and go nope moron you do this as a hobby this is not going to pan out. Just rough figure and not radically altering head design where it's a one off rocker and cam I'd say it would be 2500 range per head. Not many guys are going to say heres my money.

????? he said fine wine on a grape juice budget. Oh man I gotta remember that one. It's so true though.

mrrcx said:
Serious. You are one of the few people that I value engine input from, and I would hope that goes both ways.
The heads are air cooled and simple, why not make some out of a block of aluminum so you don't have to mess with people sending china quality to put some Japanese GD&T into was my point specifically for the 2 valve 190 where the material is too thin for a proper in/ex valve ratio. You don't have to tell me how every wants fine wine on a grape juice budget. It is tough to find people that understand what it takes to do an engine right just because it 'ran before'.
You're a good dude who does good work, don't let the people distract you from your passion.

50race · Apr 6, 2019

MotoSyko for Anima http://www.motosyko.com
item #: MS396 / MS397 Intake valve 24.5 x 4.5 Exhaust valve 21 x 4.5
item #: NF15003/01 RACING CLUTCH BASKET KIT inner and outer basket

CHP for TRX90 CHP Motorsports Inc. The original Classic Honda, Privateer Racing, CHP Race products, Classic Honda USA, Honda CT70, Z50, Pit Bikes, Monkey Bike, XR50, CRF50, NSR50, XR70, CRF70, Pit Bikes, Honda Minitrails, XR100 and NOS, Kitaco, Takegawa Parts and
item #: TRX4 CHP Oil passage tube For using crf50 type crank in trx90 engine with stock clutch cover.
item #: P776 CHP Primary Drive gear kit. for use on crf50 type cranks in TRX90. eliminates the centrifugal clutch.
item #: P846 Honda Kick start spindle kit

http://dratv.com for TRX90
item #: 263A/8DC TRX90 add on kisk start assy TRX90 TRICK_ADD/ON KICK_STARTER ASSY_(263A/8DC)

I have been looking more at the Philippines older Honda XRM110 and Wave110 engines. They have a TRX90 type clutch setup. Over there manual clutch conversion kits are about $40 with new clutch cover/cable/lever asm. I have seen hydraulic conversion kits but not the prices. Harder to find pre-electric start models online. I'm trying to find a contact in the motorcycle scene there for my next visit. Would be awesome if the XRM/Wave engines use the same transmissions/clutch as NICE110s

The newer bikes for sale in PHL have crf110 and Grom type engines

50race · Apr 6, 2019

Anima OEM bare head...dang as I'm making this post the price went up... Was $179 i think last time I viewed it, now $202
https://www.motorkit.com/en/cylinder-en-cylinder-head/12359-cylinder-head-anima.html
item #: DAY86368 cylinder head

Tbolt HD clutch kit/pack
item #: W-TRC-9385 HD 6 PLATE CLUTCH & SPRINGS KIT
item #: W-15-1704 SUPER HD CLUTCH SPRINGS (same spring in kit above..I think)

Tbolt also offer a 6 disc kit for 5 disc YX engines. I an guessing this is thinner plates to squeeze 6 on a 5 disc clutch. So maybe order a couple of these and squeeze 7 on a 6 disc clutch... Making myself laugh but who knows without having parts in hand to measure and check
https://tboltusa.com/store/tbparts-yx-gpx-plate-billet-clutch-br-replacement-plate-kit-p-1243.html
"6 Plate Kit - Replacement for our Billet Clutch Assembly or an upgrade kit for your stock 5 plate clutch"

I have not confirmed but I do believe the CR85 clutch fibers fit the Daytona Anima clutch from what I have read

Also found a great summary of Fatcaaat's poor mans NICE and another of his builds on lilhonda forum

Fatcaaat's post
"Here's what I once did...of course I did this before!

I had a honda wave crankshaft, which was the same as a trx90, except it was a 68mm stroke. I wanted to build a crazy interesting motorout of it, so I got a set of midblock chinese cases and stuffed it with a trx90 transmission and clutch. I added in a kickstart that matched the transmission and modified the cases so it would work. I used a set of Daytona TREX 150 cases, so it had the non-kick in gear setup. Once that was done, I took the 1-way clutch mechanism and modified it to be non-centrifugal by turning it all the way down and fill welding it solid and then turning it nice. Looked almost like a stock piece when I was done. Then I popped a normal chinese clutchcover on it and had a full blown manual clutch. This was 178cc when done.

When I built my "poor man's nice" engine, I was non-committal to that approach but it was effectively the same thing. I used an aasa 63mm crank, daytona trex cases, and a trx90 transmission, but this time I left the centrifugal mechanism intact. This gave me 157cc engine, semi auto. If I ever wanted to convert it, all i would need to do is swap the clutchcover and repeat the turning and fill welding as I did on the other build. If ever there was a regret, is that I sold this motor on, as I it was dead nuts reliable and fast.

Honestly, if I were looking to build a semi-auto motor, I'd built it damn near the exact same way I did the Poor Man's Nice except I'd consider adding a superhead to the top for even more power.

If you want to go 124 on a trx90 base, that's actually quite easy. Just swap the crank to the takegawa 54mm crank and switch out the crank gear from 18T standard on CT's to a 17T from an xr50 to match the clutch gear. Assemble as usual.

Also, a little tidbit of information. NEVER buy one of the aftermarket oilpumps on any 12v small block engine setup. Buy the TRX90 oilpump...same size as the Takegawa pump, and you can buy them new for about $7."

50race · Apr 15, 2019

I am hunting a cheap 93-05 TRX90 bottom end for dual purpose. One to tear down and measure for this project. Two, to build back up with the Takegawa DOHC kit I bought with the beefy semi auto in the TRX(with a lot of swapping so it all fits)

Wrench · May 9, 2019

50race said:
Tbolt also offer a 6 disc kit for 5 disc YX engines. I an guessing this is thinner plates to squeeze 6 on a 5 disc clutch. So maybe order a couple of these and squeeze 7 on a 6 disc clutch... Making myself laugh but who knows without having parts in hand to measure and check
https://tboltusa.com/store/tbparts-yx-gpx-plate-billet-clutch-br-replacement-plate-kit-p-1243.html
"6 Plate Kit - Replacement for our Billet Clutch Assembly or an upgrade kit for your stock 5 plate clutch"

I had this kit in my YX160. It worked well. And yes, both the fibers and metal plates are thinner than stock.

I recently went to a 212 kit on my Anima, and the clutch started slipping (23hp range now). I have confirmed myself that the YX clutch parts will dimensionally fit the inner and outer basket, but the clutch pack thickness is different. I am currently running a 7-disk bastard clutch pack with mostly the thinner fibers and disks of the kit mentioned above, with a few of the thicker plates from the stock Anima clutch to make the total pack thickness similar. This mod completely eliminated the hurky-jerky clutch release on the Anima. I have yet to find stiffer springs that work, the Anima clutch requires much longer springs than the YX160 did.

Bores	42	49.5	53	57	62	Strokes
62	126.8	149.4	160.0	172.1	187.2
66	143.7	169.3	181.3	195.0	212.1
68	152.5	179.8	192.5	207.0	225.2
69	157.0	185.1	198.2	213.1	231.8
70	161.6	190.5	204.0	219.4	238.6
72	171.0	201.5	215.8	232.1	252.4
74	180.6	212.9	227.9	245.1	266.7
75	185.6	218.7	234.1	251.8	273.9
	15,700	13,300	12,400	11,600	10,600	22m/s piston speed RPM

Parts list for a bullet resistant Daytona Anima build

50race

storminnorman07

storminnorman07

T-Wrecks Racing

storminnorman07

T-Wrecks Racing

50race

storminnorman07

storminnorman07

50race

T-Wrecks Racing

50race

mrrcx

storminnorman07

mrrcx

storminnorman07

50race

50race

50race

Wrench

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