[BallCrab]

blackwood, are you a pitster dealer?

 

[fatcaaat]

As an FYI, this particular motor is on its way to me for a tear down, inspection and rebuild. I volunteered to do the work since I want to support someone who is a hobbiest and going off on adventures I only wish I could do at this point in my life.



I have no affiliation with Pitster and I am only an acquaintance of the customer. However, I am, what I believe to be, a very qualified engine builder and have a passion for ct70's which is why I took on this work for a case of beer and a burger from my favorite burger joint (yes the obama burger place is actually the best place in DC).



Now I don't have an invoice of all the work promised by the vendor. I don't have a list of what exactly the customer paid for...and I really don't care. I"m going to open it up and document what I find, and replace any parts that need to be replaced (on the customer's or pitster's dime or donations...etc...whoever wants to pay for any needed parts I don't care) and put it back together and ship it back. And I'm going to do this while I drink the beer and enjoy the hobby.



It will be correct when he gets it back. I'm not assuming anything on either side...I will state facts and take pictures and post results.



On a side note...I personally own a pitster pro motard with a bbk and v2 it on it and also purchased a crate motor from pitster, and put a bbk and v2 on it for my ct70. I am a big fan of these products, personally and run them in my own bikes, and have logged thousands of trouble free miles with them.

 

[Pitster]

We stand behind our products and the produts we sale and have even gone so far as to overnight parts and engines to help the customers we deal with. If a custom has an issue they can talk with me direclty during normal business hrs. Also modified and race engines do not have a warrantee.



Thanks

Gary

801.796.7416

 

[chuckklr04]

We stand behind our products and the produts we sale and have even gone so far as to overnight parts and engines to help the customers we deal with. If a custom has an issue they can talk with me direclty during normal business hrs. Also modified and race engines do not have a warrantee.



Thanks

Gary

801.796.7416

So a engine built by your guys with aftermarket parts, that was never ran at the warehouse,and cannot run due to tech screwup has no warranty?







Who covers the mistakes made by your tech? The customer?



You could have called monday. Matt was told to have you call me.

 

[Matified]

OK,here is the deal,,Chuck broke down on his bike on the way to sturgis with an engine he did not buy from us, another vendor called and asked if we could help since he was in nebeaska, i made arraingments to get him a new lifan 150 take out from an x4r,but he talked to the parts dept and bought a 155z and had them ship it to Sturgis, after he spend a few days trying to wire the z stator to his wiring and kicking it for days,, he was finally able to get it running (put his stator on it?) by then he had already damaged the kicker gears. so after the event he called and we sent him another engine and a shipping label, (he never sends back the engine) , then a short time later he says his second engine broke and said it was just geared too low, he then decided to send the first engine, (even though he had a label for the second he did not send that one) the first engine we added for free, a YX primary gear, all the kicker gears, new cases and not even labor on those repairs (Pitster carries a parts warranty only), and only charged him for a v2 and BBK and a decomp,,and the labor to istall the aftermarket parts.

I installed everything correctly even had the decomp on the engine in the correct spot, But Chuck said his coil wire was too short so he moved the decomp and did NOT have it set where it would clear the head and it was in a bind so, as these things work, he took off on a long ride with the decomp leaking so bad that it worked like a torch and then ruined head, I could tell by his pictures and conversations that that head problem was his own mistake!! But he went to Gary and had us overnight him a new head!! and a new clutch HE installed himself . all of which he did not have installed correctly (he even post somewhere asking how the decomp works with the button in or out tried to make it stay in while riding it)

Only a few day later said that his engine would not turn over and I thought it might be related to the head, so I once again told him to send the engine in and I would reassemble it. when that engine came back , he had again Fed it up,, he put the splined washer behind the clutch basket and pushed the basket up against the slinger, this caused damage to the slinger, clutch and gears while trying to start it,(the symtoms he told me sounded like the head valve issue, which did not turn out to be the case), he also did not put the orings on the stator so it leaked like crazy.

I reassembled the engine with a new clutch basket and slinger along with kicker gears and side case.I also installed a new decomp corrcetly again.



Each and everytime he had an issue he would threaten to go to all the forums and tell "his" story, and here is where we are now.



I have done over 500 engines and if I truly were that bad you would see at least 2/3 post like his every single day,,, chuck has had 2 engines , that 1 has been repaired a few times and he continues to break them!!



This last time I had witnesses while we started that engine to show that it worked perfectly before it was shipped ,, and it did.



We have always had the best intentions for chuck and hoped the best for his project,,,

Not sure where he got his $1300+ figure as the last thing he did was purchase the TB head, BBK , the shipping and labor to install those parts was $727. and that was on Jan 14 ,2010



No one can imagine the hours I have spent on the phone( both at work and on my personal number) listening to Chuck cuss and scream about something he could not figure out and would not slow down enough to listen for me to help,, only after a long time and many attempts he would come back and say,, OK I got it.

 

[Grafixxs]

WOW...I mean wow!

 

[racerx711]

the "full" story will never be heard...

pitsters lied to me and others before, so take matts story with a grain of salt..



chuck: get a working motor, make sure its good to go... and then sell it for a loss



think of it as lesson learned and stick with quality products from now on.

 

[stevec]

USA Motor toys needs a spanking!

Time out. What's going on in the rear view mirror?

 

[wogtaz ryder]

Side boob armpit shot , i like!



But from matts side , WOW indeed ..... you sounds like a ritard..



Hey matt how about them hubs ay ?

 

[toddbumpa]

pitsters= hacks.

 

[chuckklr04]

OK,here is the deal,,Chuck broke down on his bike on the way to sturgis with an engine he did not buy from us, another vendor called and asked if we could help since he was in nebeaska, i made arraingments to get him a new lifan 150 take out from an x4r,but he talked to the parts dept and bought a 155z and had them ship it to Sturgis, after he spend a few days trying to wire the z stator to his wiring and kicking it for days,, he was finally able to get it running (put his stator on it?) by then he had already damaged the kicker gears. so after the event he called and we sent him another engine and a shipping label, (he never sends back the engine) , then a short time later he says his second engine broke and said it was just geared too low, he then decided to send the first engine, (even though he had a label for the second he did not send that one) the first engine we added for free, a YX primary gear, all the kicker gears, new cases and not even labor on those repairs (Pitster carries a parts warranty only), and only charged him for a v2 and BBK and a decomp,,and the labor to istall the aftermarket parts.

I installed everything correctly even had the decomp on the engine in the correct spot, But Chuck said his coil wire was too short so he moved the decomp and did NOT have it set where it would clear the head and it was in a bind so, as these things work, he took off on a long ride with the decomp leaking so bad that it worked like a torch and then ruined head, I could tell by his pictures and conversations that that head problem was his own mistake!! But he went to Gary and had us overnight him a new head!! and a new clutch HE installed himself . all of which he did not have installed correctly (he even post somewhere asking how the decomp works with the button in or out tried to make it stay in while riding it)

Only a few day later said that his engine would not turn over and I thought it might be related to the head, so I once again told him to send the engine in and I would reassemble it. when that engine came back , he had again Fed it up,, he put the splined washer behind the clutch basket and pushed the basket up against the slinger, this caused damage to the slinger, clutch and gears while trying to start it,(the symtoms he told me sounded like the head valve issue, which did not turn out to be the case), he also did not put the orings on the stator so it leaked like crazy.

I reassembled the engine with a new clutch basket and slinger along with kicker gears and side case.I also installed a new decomp corrcetly again.



Each and everytime he had an issue he would threaten to go to all the forums and tell "his" story, and here is where we are now.



I have done over 500 engines and if I truly were that bad you would see at least 2/3 post like his every single day,,, chuck has had 2 engines , that 1 has been repaired a few times and he continues to break them!!



This last time I had witnesses while we started that engine to show that it worked perfectly before it was shipped ,, and it did.



We have always had the best intentions for chuck and hoped the best for his project,,,

Not sure where he got his $1300+ figure as the last thing he did was purchase the TB head, BBK , the shipping and labor to install those parts was $727. and that was on Jan 14 ,2010



No one can imagine the hours I have spent on the phone( both at work and on my personal number) listening to Chuck cuss and scream about something he could not figure out and would not slow down enough to listen for me to help,, only after a long time and many attempts he would come back and say,, OK I got it.

First off Matt Jr. talked me into to buying the z155. I did not spend 2 days installing the stator in Sturgis. In fact if it was not for the for the lame helicoil exhaust studs included with klx head adapter I would have finished by lunch. I ended up modding bolts from Napa to make it work. Gee, I wonder why they come with solid bolts now? Check my 10inch wheels thread for the facts

The Sturgis had kick start problems from the beginning and was a factor in not riding it home.

I was lax in sending it back,however I did just get back from riding a mini 1600 miles and partying for a week. Getting those CT70 nudes was hard work! They also forgot to include the mailing label with new engine. I had to call them to arrange the shipping.



I was charged labor and parts for the 184cc BBK, jap bearings,v2 head (installed off time by 5 teeth) and decompressor gizmo. THEY WERE INSTRUCTED TO RUN THE MOTOR BEFORE SHIPPING. Gizmo broke the plastic top first time I touched it. I understand that it been changed to metal ( I wonder why? Only reason why i removed the gizmo was to find out why the engine would not turn. It came installed with no instruction for assemble or use. Thought it was odd that a motor ran by Matt Sr.,before it left the shop would do that. So I called Matt and asked them if it was was ran. " Ran it myself" was his anwer. He became to stammer and fumble his words when told about it off time. Lie number 1, and it was a big one.

After much wrangling they sent me a new head. Istalled it correctly and with the proper timing. Motor is hard to turn and kicks back. Ends up tearing up starter gears and clutch teeth (12). I dig out 6. They send new gears and clutch cam and say it was was caused by faulty TB cam. I install all and it still won't work.

Ship it back ( at my expense) with instructions to split the case and remove all crap floating around, and to fix it. Run it before it leaves the shop. Matt agrees to it.

Install it when it arrives,runs for a minute, and its the same thing. Kickstarter jams.



I remove the stator cover and see a gear tooth and metal shavings . I figure stay broken teeth are jamming the starter.



Call matt again. "sure I split the cases and it out" and ( ran fine here, even had a crowd watching."



Second lie



Flush it all out and try again. Same problem, and I'm getting real frustrated. Post about and herewe are.





I would like to point out that no time did scream,holler or curse at Matt. Even though I had reason!



Neither did I threaten to blackmail him by writing about it. Only did so to Protect YOU. Figured if a high profile poster would get screwed what was he doing with average poster/customer.







I have talked about this ordeal the whole time with respected members on this forum by phone. They all seem to have had bad experiences with Matt.

 

[TRT]

WOW I heard about this a while ago..... I don't see Matt getting anything out of ***n someone out of $1000 dollars or so.... It is not his money and Pitster don't really need any of the money generated off this site.... So why such a big deal with this dealing IDK..... I am sure mistakes can be made (no one is perfect) but I have had nothing but good luck with Matt as a person and business man! I have had stuff replaced that I did not even buy from pitster.... kicker shafts ect.... on a bike that I bought used!



I'm not saying you did not have any problems with them but I am saying that I have NOT! good luck figuring this out and yea there is a kickstarting secret to these engines that I found out myself..... I turn the idle up and choke on then just kick it without touching the throttle.... once it starts (3-4 kicks) then I turn the idle down... works every time....

 

[chuckklr04]

WOW I heard about this a while ago..... I don't see Matt getting anything out of ***n someone out of $1000 dollars or so.... It is not his money and Pitster don't really need any of the money generated off this site.... So why such a big deal with this dealing IDK..... I am sure mistakes can be made (no one is perfect) but I have had nothing but good luck with Matt as a person and business man! I have had stuff replaced that I did not even buy from pitster.... kicker shafts ect.... on a bike that I bought used!



I'm not saying you did not have any problems with them but I am saying that I have NOT! good luck figuring this out and yea there is a kickstarting secret to these engines that I found out myself..... I turn the idle up and choke on then just kick it without touching the throttle.... once it starts (3-4 kicks) then I turn the idle down... works every time....

I am beginning to beleive it may a religous thing with them.



I ride around drink, and get women naked on their engine.



goes against their beliefs i guess, but sure not mine

 

[fatcaaat]

OK...so Chuckklr's motor arrived today. What the hell is your name anyway...is it chuck or herman or what?



Anyway, I disassembled it and took notes and some pictures as I tore it down to show exactly what I found. The notes I'm going put down are going to be unbiased opinions I've extracted from having the motor in my possession and tearing it apart. I'm also going to list out any/all parts that are needed for it to go back together. Then I'll let whomever decide what to do next.



1. The outer cases arrived with cuts and slashes on the outside stator side engine case. I don't think it would affect anything, but looks like grinding gone bad.

2. Intake rocker arm adjuster was tight, but had 1/8" clearance underneath it. Dont know what's going on there, but that was WAAAAAAY wrong.

3. The exhaust rocker arm adjuster nut was just hanging on by a few threads and was loose. Obviously this is another issue.

4. The valves and combustion chamber look practically new. I did not take the head apart but I did do a leakdown and it appears it is fine.

5. Piston in there is a scut 64mm piston, standard issue TB scut piston. No modifications done to it. So, if there was a request for a low c/r setup, it is certainly not evident here. Is there such a thing?

6. Cylinder has scoring all the way around...top bottom, sides. It is very light and will hone out fine, so no big deal.

7. Piston is in good shape as are the rings.

8. Crank appears to be in fine condition with no excessive play . Bearings on crank are fine.

9. Pulled the clutch cover and a tooth of a gear fell out. There was also a tooth lodged in behind one of the kicker gears. However, there were NO teeth missing on any gears anywhere in the motor.

10. I dont' know if it makes a difference because I haven't seen these clutch packs before, but the clutch frictions look like one side is slightly more meaty than the other on all of them. But they were staggered, so they were not worn that way. I'd think you'd want them all in one direction, but I don't know?

11. This motor contained, what appears to be, a standard 5-plate clutch pack with 5 plates in it. It also appears to have standard springs.

12. There is a hunk of metal missing from one of the kicker gears. This is an odd shaped piece that I think I found on the inner cases up near the front.

13. The same gear that was missing the hunk is blued from heat where it rides against the bearing.

14. The shift star tensioner has some area ground away from the kicker gear rubbing it. The kicker gear stack was missing a thrust washer which is why it was rubbing I think. Same with a small part of the case on the same gear.

15. The back of the clutch pack where the gear goes in is all chewed up.

16. the residual oil and case inners contain, what I believe to be, an excessive amount of sparkle. My guess is that it is a combination of aluminum from the cases in some spots where the kicker gear rubbed, and metal from ground up bits.

17. While the kickstarter gears are intact, they are mashed a bit.

18. The lighting coil that is on there is the large and heavy flywheel kind...the ones that are notorious for snapping cranks on the YX160's. I don't know if there are reports of this for the z motor, but its there all the same.



So there you have it. These are my findings. A quick summary says that there were some broken teeth inside but no broken gears, the kickstart gears and back of clutch pack are mashed, the rocker arms were not remotely correct, and a TON of residual metal flakes all over the inside of the motor.



So, what does this motor need to go back together. Here is my list.



1. Clutch housing

2. Clutch housing little gear that goes into it

3. The upper kickstart gear

4. Gasket Kit

5. Hone the cylinder

6. Clean and proper assembly

7. Smaller or different version of the outer rotor. I would personally not run that HUGE thing on a performance motor under ANY circumstances.



Draw your own conclusions people on this...

 

[fatcaaat]

I need to make another point here:



I don't have any evidence one way or the other to derive any conclusions whatsoever. All I can do is state the facts based on what I found when I tore down the motor...no more, no less. I can't tell if there was any teardown by chuck...the gaskets all looked good and nice, all bolts were tight.



I'm not taking chuck's side at all. I have my personal beliefs of what I think has happened here, but I'm leaving them out of it. I want to stand exactly in the middle and get this whole deal sorted out so we can all go back to our lives and the mud is no longer being slung. I hope the 3 of us can just put our heads together, we get it sorted, and we all go home happy.



I'm trying to take a leadership position here on the forums I love. I'm not here to support a position or draw conclusions or do anything but report what I find and get resolution so this is all over.

 

[chuckklr04]

OK...so Chuckklr's motor arrived today. What the hell is your name anyway...is it chuck or herman or what?



Anyway, I disassembled it and took notes and some pictures as I tore it down to show exactly what I found. The notes I'm going put down are going to be unbiased opinions I've extracted from having the motor in my possession and tearing it apart. I'm also going to list out any/all parts that are needed for it to go back together. Then I'll let whomever decide what to do next.



1. The outer cases arrived with cuts and slashes on the outside stator side engine case. I don't think it would affect anything, but looks like grinding gone bad.

2. Intake rocker arm adjuster was tight, but had 1/8" clearance underneath it. Dont know what's going on there, but that was WAAAAAAY wrong.

3. The exhaust rocker arm adjuster nut was just hanging on by a few threads and was loose. Obviously this is another issue.

4. The valves and combustion chamber look practically new. I did not take the head apart but I did do a leakdown and it appears it is fine.

5. Piston in there is a scut 64mm piston, standard issue TB scut piston. No modifications done to it. So, if there was a request for a low c/r setup, it is certainly not evident here. Is there such a thing?

6. Cylinder has scoring all the way around...top bottom, sides. It is very light and will hone out fine, so no big deal.

7. Piston is in good shape as are the rings.

8. Crank appears to be in fine condition with no excessive play . Bearings on crank are fine.

9. Pulled the clutch cover and a tooth of a gear fell out. There was also a tooth lodged in behind one of the kicker gears. However, there were NO teeth missing on any gears anywhere in the motor.

10. I dont' know if it makes a difference because I haven't seen these clutch packs before, but the clutch frictions look like one side is slightly more meaty than the other on all of them. But they were staggered, so they were not worn that way. I'd think you'd want them all in one direction, but I don't know?

11. This motor contained, what appears to be, a standard 5-plate clutch pack with 5 plates in it. It also appears to have standard springs.

12. There is a hunk of metal missing from one of the kicker gears. This is an odd shaped piece that I think I found on the inner cases up near the front.

13. The same gear that was missing the hunk is blued from heat where it rides against the bearing.

14. The shift star tensioner has some area ground away from the kicker gear rubbing it. The kicker gear stack was missing a thrust washer which is why it was rubbing I think. Same with a small part of the case on the same gear.

15. The back of the clutch pack where the gear goes in is all chewed up.

16. the residual oil and case inners contain, what I believe to be, an excessive amount of sparkle. My guess is that it is a combination of aluminum from the cases in some spots where the kicker gear rubbed, and metal from ground up bits.

17. While the kickstarter gears are intact, they are mashed a bit.

18. The lighting coil that is on there is the large and heavy flywheel kind...the ones that are notorious for snapping cranks on the YX160's. I don't know if there are reports of this for the z motor, but its there all the same.



So there you have it. These are my findings. A quick summary says that there were some broken teeth inside but no broken gears, the kickstart gears and back of clutch pack are mashed, the rocker arms were not remotely correct, and a TON of residual metal flakes all over the inside of the motor.



So, what does this motor need to go back together. Here is my list.



1. Clutch housing

2. Clutch housing little gear that goes into it

3. The upper kickstart gear

4. Gasket Kit

5. Hone the cylinder

6. Clean and proper assembly

7. Smaller or different version of the outer rotor. I would personally not run that HUGE thing on a performance motor under ANY circumstances.



Draw your own conclusions people on this...

Middle Name Charles,but called chuck because of the 4 Hermans within a half block.



1) is to make a 18 tooth fit..Never ran long enough to find out it worked with the 31 tooth rear.



2) Outer rotor i never used because I use a higher output stator bought from them on all my motors. The same stator is installed in my 140cc Lifan which has powered me to Boone North Carolina.



3) Clutch should be a aftermarket upgrade. They send it for free when the stock lost teeth. Was still the upgrade when it was shipped to them. Must have fell off in the warehouse,and replaced with stock. Damn Indian giver's!



5) I was told the valve cutouts were machined bigger on the piston. Lie four or five? I lose track.

 

[Matified]

I have a ton of text from Chuck while I was at Vegas,, he took the thing apart from one end to another,,trying to find out why it locked up on him, starting from the head, then through the clutch and the drive gears,,, I find it funny that the 6 disc daytona clutch pack is NOT in there as it was when it left here..



I have forwarded the copy of the reciept on to fatcat so he can see exactly what was paid for.



Chuck,, did you forget to mention you took it apart before sending it to him?



also no mention of the FRD decomp that was installed correctly on the engine?

 

[millbillyfiddy]

:wtf1: opcorn:

 

[fatcaaat]

I have a ton of text from Chuck while I was at Vegas,, he took the thing apart from one end to another,,trying to find out why it locked up on him, starting from the head, then through the clutch and the drive gears,,, I find it funny that the 6 disc daytona clutch pack is NOT in there as it was when it left here..



I have forwarded the copy of the reciept on to fatcat so he can see exactly what was paid for.



Chuck,, did you forget to mention you took it apart before sending it to him?



also no mention of the FRD decomp that was installed correctly on the engine?

The FRD decompression device is present but at this point remains untested as I did not want to attempt to try to do anything that might compromise the top end. I've never had or used one of these so I'm glad I have an opportunity to see one.

 

[chuckklr04]

I have a ton of text from Chuck while I was at Vegas,, he took the thing apart from one end to another,,trying to find out why it locked up on him, starting from the head, then through the clutch and the drive gears,,, I find it funny that the 6 disc daytona clutch pack is NOT in there as it was when it left here..



I have forwarded the copy of the reciept on to fatcat so he can see exactly what was paid for.



Chuck,, did you forget to mention you took it apart before sending it to him?



also no mention of the FRD decomp that was installed correctly on the engine?

nope! Last time I did not take apart the head! Just checked timing. sure did mention that along with the fact that I had to remove beacuse it was out of time, and no directions on use or install were included.



Funny thing is ya'll now include directions.



You want to tell them about Me funding your research and developent? How I ended up with all your new products with failed and were changed?



funny thing is I bought 3-4 new products from them which after failure were redesigned. go figure? even Mentioned it to you that I did care to be a guinea pig for Pitster new products.





I'm drunk now. Going to bed now because I can't find any whores with a minitrail fetish around this hotel.