This poll is for those out there who actualy HAVE an oil cooler and have an opinion on it that isnt based just in what they have been told, but in their own experience. Is a real oil cooler (not the billet heat traps sold on ebay) actualy an effective way to cool a Big bore and or stroked engine?
Oil Cooler- Another Oil reservoir or a good way to cool the engine?
epowell7
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This poll is for those out there who actualy HAVE an oil cooler and have an opinion on it that isnt based just in what they have been told, but in their own experience. Is a real oil cooler (not the billet heat traps sold on ebay) actualy an effective way to cool a Big bore and or stroked engine?
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I am not going to answer the poll because I honestly don't know. I have oil coolers on all of my bikes...but have not run modified motors without them ever.
Here's where it gets good. There are a lot of opinions out there on this but no one has supported those opinions with any cold hard facts. That's going to change in a few weeks.
I am building a 142cc Honda Nice engine for my CT70 which will be used for the street. This engine will be sporting a 10 row earls cooler running -6an lines. The oil cooler plus lines adds an additional .3l of volume to the engine setup based on my calculations.
I also will be running a Koso dash unit that comes with two temperature probes. These probes will be plumbed into my lines both before the oil cooler and after the oil cooler. So, we're going to soon have scientific proof with real numbers to determine how much cooling is actually occuring with the oil coolers.
And, as an FYI, an earl's 10 row cooler is far superior to just about any cooler I've ever seen on any pitbike. So if this thing doesn't cool...no other ones will be either.
One more thing to consider...position of the cooler should be key. If you put it behind something, chances are it will not cool all that well. But if you mount it where air can hit it, you'd think it would do a better job. I think a lot of it will ride on how quickly the oil pushes through the system and how much air gets to hit it.
However...numbers are numbers...we'll see.
Here's where it gets good. There are a lot of opinions out there on this but no one has supported those opinions with any cold hard facts. That's going to change in a few weeks.
I am building a 142cc Honda Nice engine for my CT70 which will be used for the street. This engine will be sporting a 10 row earls cooler running -6an lines. The oil cooler plus lines adds an additional .3l of volume to the engine setup based on my calculations.
I also will be running a Koso dash unit that comes with two temperature probes. These probes will be plumbed into my lines both before the oil cooler and after the oil cooler. So, we're going to soon have scientific proof with real numbers to determine how much cooling is actually occuring with the oil coolers.
And, as an FYI, an earl's 10 row cooler is far superior to just about any cooler I've ever seen on any pitbike. So if this thing doesn't cool...no other ones will be either.
One more thing to consider...position of the cooler should be key. If you put it behind something, chances are it will not cool all that well. But if you mount it where air can hit it, you'd think it would do a better job. I think a lot of it will ride on how quickly the oil pushes through the system and how much air gets to hit it.
However...numbers are numbers...we'll see.
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i have one, its going on my klx110 when i get the motor back. cant put my vote in the poll either, looking forward to cat's findings.
fatcaaat, could you post a pic of your cooler (or let me know where if you already have) i have the one that two bros sells now. wondering if they are similar. thanks
i dont have any doubt its gonna show that there is some cooling especially when mounted where clean air hits the fins or coils and when using large oil lines. it will be nice to see if its a noticeable difference though.
fatcaaat, when you run your tests make sure to let us know the results while it is being ran hard cause you know how we all do haha
fatcaaat, could you post a pic of your cooler (or let me know where if you already have) i have the one that two bros sells now. wondering if they are similar. thanks
i dont have any doubt its gonna show that there is some cooling especially when mounted where clean air hits the fins or coils and when using large oil lines. it will be nice to see if its a noticeable difference though.
fatcaaat, when you run your tests make sure to let us know the results while it is being ran hard cause you know how we all do haha
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I've got a takegawa oil cooler just sitting on the shelf, so I'm going to throw it on my 108. If it helps, great, if not that's fine too. The way I see it, if youre bringing that oil away from the motor, through an area made of alum. with big surface areas for as much air to hit as possible, and also the extra added oil it could hold, one could only think it would have to do something.
That's just thinking through it though, as fatcaaat said, numbers are numbers. Guess we'll find out!
Also, I've seen a couple people on this site with the oil lines coming out the bottom of the oil cooler. In my mind, I have no idea how that would even help at all. To me, that would seem like just an external resivoir. Lines need to come out the top.
About Motorcycle Oil Coolers | eHow.com
That's just thinking through it though, as fatcaaat said, numbers are numbers. Guess we'll find out!
Also, I've seen a couple people on this site with the oil lines coming out the bottom of the oil cooler. In my mind, I have no idea how that would even help at all. To me, that would seem like just an external resivoir. Lines need to come out the top.
About Motorcycle Oil Coolers | eHow.com
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traut811 said:
What makes you think the lines have to come out of the top?
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PrimerSdime said:
if the lines come out of the bottom, is the oil cooler even doing much good? Id THINK (maybe I'm wrong..) for the cooler to work its best oil would need to flow in the top, so most surface area hits the oil, cooling it. If the lines are in the bottom couldn't oil just flow on the bottom of the cooler and leave once it gets to the other port?
Maybe someone could prove me wrong for sure/back me up on this.
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That is a good thought. But, im thinking with the lines up top, alot of debris will get stuck in there.
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How much debris do you have pushing through your motor, after the sump screen and sling/clutch? OE's all top-feed, to keep the cooler full and from draining back to the sump and creating a big air pocket to push through every start up.
The usual head cooler is only seeing the part of the oil that passes up the 2mm or less passage, not the crank's supply, so they really are not all that effective in that aspect. Without converting to full flow (as we do on XR100's and big YX's, as an option, Honda 50's with a bit more effort), it's like turning on the central air, on a hot day, but leaving half the windows open.
The "billet" coolers, extrusions actually, have too little interior surface area to be much help, either. A good plate & fin cooler is the way to go, if you use one. The rest of the (clean) engine is doing a similar job already, by being exposed to cooling air. Street bikes are decent cooler donors, if you aren't afraid of a little plumbing and mount fabrication.
Airflow, as the 'caaat said, is key, as well. MX bikes rarely see the speeds needed to force enough air through the cooler for them to do a good job. Yeah, even you "fast" guys. Some ATV's come with coolers, and most have wider fin spacing for the slower air speeds and to be less likely to clog.
Even head design makes a difference in operating temperature. Look at a stock YX head and a V2. The V2 has additional airflow passages through the head, around the ports. I add them to some stock heads, to open up the still-air pocket that is behind the plug, where the ports and chamber are exposed. Hot air is bad for power. for the most part, so getting some movement where the chamber meets the intake port is a good idea. Same reason I grind away the flash in the lower left "scoop" on a Honda-type head, to allow airflow through the head, where combustion temps get things REAL toasty. TB heads have an oversize scoop, for similar reasons, likely.
And, as I step on the soapbox... There is NO good reason to change the oil every ride, like too many do, unless your race hauler burns that much, or you feel the oil companies NEED more of your money
A good cycle oil is designed for the higher temps, and gear shearing that occurs in a bike motor, with a decent service life. If your rings are sealing, and your trans gears aren't crumbling, clutch plates or basket rubbers falling apart, oil lasts a lot longer than many give it credit for. My little 5-hole Jetta only asks for a fresh gallon of the stuff every 10,000 miles. Sure, break-in is different, especially on the Chinese motors with their less-aggressive gear deburring. TB magnetic drain plug has a WAY stronger magnet than the pretty anodized Kitaco/Tak ones, and is a $6.50 investment that goes in EVERY engine I build. Your lower screen and sling/clutch do a good job of debris collection. Clean them, in return.
But what do I know...
Looking forward to your findings, J. Lets see how it works in my substantial CL70 draft, this July
The usual head cooler is only seeing the part of the oil that passes up the 2mm or less passage, not the crank's supply, so they really are not all that effective in that aspect. Without converting to full flow (as we do on XR100's and big YX's, as an option, Honda 50's with a bit more effort), it's like turning on the central air, on a hot day, but leaving half the windows open.
The "billet" coolers, extrusions actually, have too little interior surface area to be much help, either. A good plate & fin cooler is the way to go, if you use one. The rest of the (clean) engine is doing a similar job already, by being exposed to cooling air. Street bikes are decent cooler donors, if you aren't afraid of a little plumbing and mount fabrication.
Airflow, as the 'caaat said, is key, as well. MX bikes rarely see the speeds needed to force enough air through the cooler for them to do a good job. Yeah, even you "fast" guys. Some ATV's come with coolers, and most have wider fin spacing for the slower air speeds and to be less likely to clog.
Even head design makes a difference in operating temperature. Look at a stock YX head and a V2. The V2 has additional airflow passages through the head, around the ports. I add them to some stock heads, to open up the still-air pocket that is behind the plug, where the ports and chamber are exposed. Hot air is bad for power. for the most part, so getting some movement where the chamber meets the intake port is a good idea. Same reason I grind away the flash in the lower left "scoop" on a Honda-type head, to allow airflow through the head, where combustion temps get things REAL toasty. TB heads have an oversize scoop, for similar reasons, likely.
And, as I step on the soapbox... There is NO good reason to change the oil every ride, like too many do, unless your race hauler burns that much, or you feel the oil companies NEED more of your money
A good cycle oil is designed for the higher temps, and gear shearing that occurs in a bike motor, with a decent service life. If your rings are sealing, and your trans gears aren't crumbling, clutch plates or basket rubbers falling apart, oil lasts a lot longer than many give it credit for. My little 5-hole Jetta only asks for a fresh gallon of the stuff every 10,000 miles. Sure, break-in is different, especially on the Chinese motors with their less-aggressive gear deburring. TB magnetic drain plug has a WAY stronger magnet than the pretty anodized Kitaco/Tak ones, and is a $6.50 investment that goes in EVERY engine I build. Your lower screen and sling/clutch do a good job of debris collection. Clean them, in return.But what do I know...
Looking forward to your findings, J. Lets see how it works in my substantial CL70 draft, this July
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Thats another thing I noticed when installing my oil cooler. The oil doesnt have to go through the oil cooler. If it were forced to flow through the cooler, I could see it being very effective. Personally, I took the oil cooler off my Kitaco 124 SE the other day.
traut811 said:
Yah, and that explanation is exactly why i believe that so many people take the fact that they are said to work as truth.
As was said earlier, the largest portion of the oil circulation never even passes near the oil cooler. Beyond that, you have the fact, the oil 'cooler' is usualy placed directly next to the engine, with no significant separation from the exhaust header or engine block itself. that kind of poor placement means that unless you are at relatively high speed for extended periods of time, the engine will heat the aluminum of the oil cooler to some degree(and i suspect at a stop or at slow speeds it would not be an insignificant amount). These two facts combine to a cooling system that seems to be extremely inefficient at best.
Now is an extremely inefficient cooling system better than no cooling system for a high stress engine? Yah, probably at least a miniscule amount.
The bigger question though is not does the standard Oil Cooler system TB or Kitaco sells worth the money? Thats the question i really am concerned with personaly. Being im tight on money and just looking to build a 108 or 117cc toy for around campus and other short distance riding, im not looking to spend large amounts of excess money.
Anyways, I am definently looking forward to the results of your test fatcaaat.
I suppose i could do something similar without much difficulty.... I have access to full automotive diagnostic and data gathering equipment (the perks of being involved in a race car design program for college students.
), and i am planning on stroking the little 88 soon. Could even turn this into a full blown study..... Before and after oil cooler installation, engine block and oil temps after periods of running at constant throttle position in different gears(speeds) and at stand still.....Hmmm. Anybody have a oil cooler they could throw my way for cheap? :smoker:
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you can also change the location of the tap lines. you could tap one to the clutch cover near the oil pump, and the other one in the normal location attatched to the head?? the ones I see all seem to attatch at the head where there isn't nearly as much pressure, just a thought.
they dont do jack but require you to put more oil in your bike
I mean the biggest thing is these motors dont get hot enough (if properly jetted) to require one...so even if it lowers your oil temp by a few degrees it doesnt matter...
Kind of like putting heated grips on your bike when riding in 90 degree weather...sure it might make your grips a bit hotter but there is absolutely no need for it
Firepower the only reason I change my oil almost every ride is because out camping the warmth during the day and the sometimes frost at night I get milky looking oil so im guessing its condesating.....that or im suckin in water.....and mainly since I get my oil free so hey why not change it right?
I mean the biggest thing is these motors dont get hot enough (if properly jetted) to require one...so even if it lowers your oil temp by a few degrees it doesnt matter...
Kind of like putting heated grips on your bike when riding in 90 degree weather...sure it might make your grips a bit hotter but there is absolutely no need for it
Firepower the only reason I change my oil almost every ride is because out camping the warmth during the day and the sometimes frost at night I get milky looking oil so im guessing its condesating.....that or im suckin in water.....and mainly since I get my oil free so hey why not change it right?
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I just don't think normal riding is fast enough to get air passing through them to make much of a difference, unless you are roadracing or something similar. I know that when I'm riding my streetbike around it will keep heating up until I start doing 40mph or faster then it cools down.
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96Justin said:
Our 88/106/124 indoor kart track motors NEED extra cooling and at over 18 real HP, the 124 is jetted just fine, thanks
OPEC will love you, but getting the oil over 220 degrees will burn off the condensation without swapping it out every morning. Poorly vented, you can have water entering the engine, or maybe you aren't riding hard enough to generate adequate temps?
Using an A-B test, with instrumentation, is the only way to be sure. I'm sure...
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Pit bike engines run hot and have been known to
overheat
Oil coolers are a performance accessory
you may not need, but it can help
Units with more "surface area" will cool better as will a direct oil flow off the pump
but any mean of allowing heat to dissipate is good including vents
Overall the engines are still air cooler and do require air flow to regulate temp
overheat
Oil coolers are a performance accessory
you may not need, but it can help
Units with more "surface area" will cool better as will a direct oil flow off the pump
but any mean of allowing heat to dissipate is good including vents
Overall the engines are still air cooler and do require air flow to regulate temp
redirt78 said:![Image]()
this is the cooler system i have. would this be one that is considered better (in theory) than others?
it mounts verticle, inside the left shroud
Looks like a TB style cooler with a billet cover. No more cooling surface area than the TB, but more metal without fins or any type of ducting or anything. Would say better than the billet heat traps (in theory), but the same or worse than a plain old TB cooler (in theory).
What is the blue peice? guessing its a kit for a different application and that serves the same purpose as the adapter you bold to the head on the TB and kitaco kits....
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i have no idea what the blue box is/does. got the kit not too long ago and i dont have my motor back so i have never used it. 2bros has it listed for $479...crazy high, by the time i get the braided lines i will have around $225 into it (still expensive) mine came to me with rubber lines off of pm
can anyone tell us what the blue box is for?
can anyone tell us what the blue box is for?
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redirt78 said:
That oil cooler kit is for a KLX 110 .. The blue box mounts on the front of the motor where the oil filter goes .. The oil filter element goes inside the blue box ..
IMO - I like runing only the non-billet type coolers when ever I have the extra money to put one on ..
I never did the temp test I wanted to try to see if it really does make a difference from one side to the other .., maybe someday ?
I like the extra oil capacity that they bring with them .., and that it is an added heat sink , other than the engine it's self...
Add in a good grade of clean motorcycle specific oil and I'm happy ...
I don't don't care if it does or doesn't work .. I makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside knowing that there might be a benifit to all the madness.., plus like 96Justin said .. they look cool mounted up on a bike ..
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